VIDEO TRANSCRIPT
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our executive director. Mark, good to see you for the second time in two days.
Mark Prater:
Yeah. Come on man.
Benjamin Kreps:
Just had lunch with Mark yesterday. We spent some time together discussing, talking about the podcast because really it's in our hearts to use this podcast as effectively as possible to serve the pastors and members of Sovereign Grace churches.
Mark Prater:
We do. That's why we do it and we love doing it. And if it ever stops doing that, we will end the podcast.
Benjamin Kreps:
That's right.
Mark Prater:
That's our heart. Ben and I met yesterday in Denver, Pennsylvania, which is about halfway between where he lives and I live. Didn't even know there was a Denver, Pennsylvania, but we had a great lunch at a lovely diner there and we talked about some new things we're going to do with the podcast and we will be announcing those soon. Maybe the next episode, if not certainly the following one. So stay tuned for those changes.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes. Right now I can already hear the excitement rising in every heart. It was wonderful to be with you and to talk about the podcast, which we love doing, and we love hearing encouraging feedback from people from time to time, helping us understand that it's helpful to them because what we want to do, we want to be helpful. But one of the things that we talked about yesterday was using the podcast to serve newer pastors and members in Sovereign Grace who aren't necessarily familiar or as familiar with our history. And that includes books that have shaped us in Sovereign Grace churches. We do recommend books from time to time. I believe the last podcast, a hodgepodge of resources was resource recommendations. And I'm glad that you do that. But there are some books that have left an indelible impression. They have shaped us, they have formed us as a denomination, books that stand the test of time.
And one of the things we talked about was that what are the books that are currently being published that people are going to be reading 50 years from now? And we were having a little trouble identifying those books and perhaps others that think better about those sorts of things than us can come up with a list. But we do know there are some wonderful, really essential books that have been so influential in our history and we don't want to leave those resources behind just because time continues to march on. And you wanted to talk about that.
Mark Prater:
I do. Because if you are a newer pastor in Sovereign Grace, younger, in Sovereign Grace, that may not be as familiar with history as you mentioned, Ben, or a newer member in a Sovereign Grace church, just never heard of Sovereign Grace before, unaware of our history. I think these books are important. First of all, I'm very grateful to our founder, CJ Mahaney, who did an effective job of building a culture of reading, not only into the life of pastoral ministry, but into the life of our churches; that members and pastors would be readers. And there are books that have shaped our entire denomination. And because these books, as you mentioned, Ben, will stand, are standing the test of time and will probably be read another 50 years from now, these are books that will continue or should continue to shape us. And that's why I'm grateful for Jared Mellinger, our Director of Publishing, to devote an entire Journal, the Sovereign Grace Journal, to this topic, our most recent edition.
It was just released, it's entitled The Books That Shaped Us. And Jared says in the introduction, "Our denomination has been deeply influenced by good books. This issue of the Journal is devoted to celebrating the books and authors that have shaped Sovereign Grace Churches: J.I. Packer's, Knowing God, John Stott's, The Cross of Christ, R.C. Sprouls, The Holiness of God and others". He goes on to say, "It was difficult to know where to stop. Charity and It's Fruits by Jonathan Edwards should have probably been included, as should the writings of Sinclair Ferguson. But if we were to exhaustively include everyone who shaped us, the Journal would need to be significantly expanded." So it is not a comprehensive list of all the books that have shaped us, but he did a good job of choosing those that have shaped us. And pastors in Sovereign Grace wrote an article about each of those books. And I really want to encourage, especially younger pastors or newer members of our churches, to get this Journal. It's available for free online and read this edition and then get the books and read the books.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes, we stand on the sturdy shoulders of those who have gone before us. And so many books have played a significant role in our formation and our theological convictions. And so that Journal is I think, a very helpful introduction, especially if there are books in that Journal that folks haven't read. I mean, so if you have read 'em, wonderful, maybe it's time to dip back in. I know I use a number of those books as research that I regularly dip into. If you haven't read 'em well, you've got something to look forward to. You have edifying books ahead of you that will help you and strengthen your faith and your love for Christ. Talk about a few of the books that are laid out in the Journal specifically.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, I would love to talk all about all of them. But this podcast episode would be too long. So I've only chosen a few, which was really hard. The first book, The Holiness of God by R.C. Sproul. Jace Hudson wrote the article on this, and I'll just give a brief mention there, R.C. Sproul, through his preaching on that topic, and he's done that at a pastor's conference for example in the past, but also the book in particular, which will stand the test of time, and is standing the test of time, It shaped our understanding of the holiness of God. And the effect of that was not only was God grander, the gospel was sweeter as a result. So if you've never read that book, read it. When my youngest daughter, Meghan, became a Christian as a teenager, this is the first book I read through with her. I took her through because I wanted her to see the holiness and the grandness of God and understand this gospel that she now knows even better.
Knowing God by J.I. Packer is another go-to book that certainly has stood the test of time, 50 years we know, because Sovereign Grace Music just devoted a whole album to the Knowing God book. And it's wonderful if you haven't listened to that. But Mickey Connolly writes this review and he opens by saying, "and the winner of the most beat up, written in, often referred to book in my library, goes to, drum roll, the envelope, please: Knowing God by J.I.Packer. And when I read that, I thought, I think that's probably the case in my library, too. I go to it a lot. I've got marks all over it. I've got an old edition. So it's like this really bad book cover compared to the newer versions. And it is just a wonderful book. J.I. Packer, who passed away a couple years ago has left us a gem that has shaped our understanding of God. And I think in a comprehensive way, he really lays it out in an accessible way, the attributes of God in a wonderful way.
Benjamin Kreps:
I have a coveted hardcover edition. Very rare. It has been dipped into again and again. His material on adoption is as good as it gets.
Mark Prater:
Yeah. Get the book for just that chapter. It is outstanding. And now I'm jealous that you have that particular cover.
Jeff Purswell did an article, The Towering Influence of D.A. Carson. And we are indebted to Dr. Carson. He just mentions a few of his books that have shaped Sovereign Grace: The Cross and Christian Ministry: Leadership Lessons from 1 Corinthians. I've read that at least twice. It's a go-to book. It's a wonderful book. Also, How Long, Oh Lord? Reflections on Suffering and Evil. Again, that's a go-to book when you are trying to pastor people through suffering or if you're going through suffering, you're a member of the church. You've got to get that book. And Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians 12-14. It is one of the finest resources I know on the person and the work of the Holy Spirit in particular, is just wonderful.
And let's see. Oh yeah, this is another book. This may rival Packer's Knowing God in terms of how beat up it is, I go to this book a lot by Carson, A Call To Spiritual Reformation: Priorities from Paul and His Prayers. And if you've never read it or if you have, there's one chapter I go back to a lot. I go to a lot of them. But one is A Passion for People. That particular chapter, it's outstanding and that cover's all wrinkled up and everything. And then Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor, the Life and Reflections of Tom Carson, a wonderful honoring tribute of his dad, but really skillfully done to speak into ordinary pastor's lives like mine. And then Jeff just ends with this, “Look across Carson's body of work. And one theme appears again and again, and not just repetitively, but in a way that binds his labors together, the DNA that infuses all its parts. And that is the gospel.” So well said, so well written. And then a book that, oh my goodness, it's one of my favorites. It's hard to choose favorites I know, is The Cross of Christ by John Stott. And the pastor who wrote the article for The Cross of Christ is actually you, Ben. So any thoughts on the cross of Christ?
Benjamin Kreps:
Well, you can read a lot, most of my thoughts, in the article for good or ill, but I mean The Cross of Christ, it's an essential resource. It certainly helped me as I came to Living Hope. I'd only been a Christian for a few years when we came around Living Hope and just deepend in my appreciation and gratitude for the cross. But The Cross of Christ is, I think, an important book because in every generation it seems that there's opposition to the doctrine of penal, substitutionary, atonement. And certainly our generation is no different. We've talked about an author recently where the gospel is disconnected from encouragement about following Jesus, for instance, but even more broadly in evangelicalism. I mean, there's something that I talk about in my church, which I refer to as the gospel of change, where it can kind of be like the message of the gospel is you can really level up with Jesus. You can live your best life if you mix him into what you're doing. But again and again, a book like The Cross of Christ helps us reorient ourselves, position ourselves in humility and adoration before the cross upon which the Prince of Glory died as our substitute, bearing our sin and God's wrath that stood against us in our sin in order to bring us to God. And so that's the kind of book that, yes, I've not only read, but reread and have dipped back into many times. And I encourage you, if you haven't read it, get it immediately. If you have read it before, maybe it's time to revisit it.
Mark Prater:
Well said. Yeah, it's just one of my favorites. There are still, there's still places in that book where I can see the pages, where you stop and you weep because of what Christ has done for us in the cross. It's that well written and well done by John Stott.
Alright, let me just mention one other article in the Journal and it's Our Debt to David Powlison and His Colleagues, written by Pete Payne. And obviously David Powlison is a unique and foundational voice in the biblical counseling movement. We want in Sovereign Grace to find ways to preserve his voice and make all of his resources available to our pastors. That's a project that actually Josh Blount and CJ and I are working on right now. So I'm very grateful that this chapter's in the Journal. This is an article in the Journal. I mean, and I thought Pete Payne gave some really good recommendations, especially if you've never read any of Powlison before.
And this is what Pete says, if you're not familiar with the thinking and writing of David Powlison, I recommend that you begin with his books, Seeing With New Eyes. That's the first one. And Speaking Truth and Love, that's the second one. A comprehensive compilation, much of his early thought and teaching on the subject of biblical counseling. And then he says this, he quotes Powlison in the introduction of Seeing with New Eyes. ‘He writes intentionally helpful conversations. That's all counseling is. Look different when you look at them from a perspective of seeing God. You see people and their troubles in a different light. When you include God in the picture, it changes the way you think about problem, diagnosis, strategy, solution, helpful, cure, change, insight, and counselor. When the lights go on, you see God and know that God sees you. My goal is to help us see God in the counseling context.” That's just really well said. That was David's heartbeat in many, many ways. And he also just did this skillful job in a related way, just making these good connections to the gospel. And then Pete says, and after you read those two books, I would follow with a reading of a book that was written near the end of his life: How Does Sanctification Work? And so if you've never read David Powlison, those are good recommendations and you can find those titles of those books not only in the transcript of our podcast, but get the Journal and read Pete Payne's article.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. David Powlison is one of those wonderful teachers who helps pastors care for folks well or definitely better, but also just helps anyone and the members of our churches, not only be cared for, if to read David Powlison, is to have your soul cared for, but also we are all in the business of caring for others and seeking to encourage others. And so Powlison is helpful and needed for all of us, and I'm grateful for those recommendations.
Speaking back to D.A. Carson, which you mentioned, I just saw that he has ceased public ministry and speaking because of Parkinson's. And so for folks like me who owe a great debt of gratitude to Dr. Carson, let's be praying for him and his family. So thank you, Mark for your recommendations. We look forward to announcing some hopefully interesting changes that folks will enjoy in the podcast. But for now, we're going to sign off and we'll see you here next week, Lord willing, so bye for now.