VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Benjamin Kreps:

Hey everyone and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace Churches with our executive director. Mark, you've talked in the past on a podcast about how you lead a Faith and Work group at Covenant Fellowship where you seek to serve Christians in the workplace and you're just about to start another iteration of this Faith and Work group. Why do you do this group?

Mark Prater:

Well, actually this week I start another Faith and Work group study and I went back and looked, I think this is starting the ninth year. It might be the 10th, but I think it's the ninth actually, because I'm old and don't remember. I tried to find when did I start this thing and this will be the ninth year. I started a Faith and Work group at Covenant Fellowship simply because there are Christians, members of our churches, who face real challenges in their vocation in the workplace day to day. And I was somewhat aware of that coming into ministry. I worked for 14 years with a pharmaceutical company before entering into pastoral ministry. So I carried that burden into ministry with me and eventually wanted to help folks face some of the things I faced, which can be ethical, moral, and obviously all those issues are rooted in good theology and using our Bible. That's why I started it. I'm so glad I did.

The purpose of our study at Covenant Fellowship is, we actually wrote this out as a group; one is to study the Bible and resources that give us a biblical worldview that help us address issues Christians face in any vocation in the workplace. And then secondly, it's a context to create biblical fellowship over those issues. And we've actually had that experience where someone needs to give a bad evaluation to an employee or someone in our church has got their own bad evaluation or they're facing their business owner and they're facing decisions where they may have to lay someone off. All of those kinds of challenges. And then more recently, challenges with AI and how does a Christian think about that ethically? So there's just been really good fellowship during our study as well.

It's also a context where I can cast, through the Bible and book study that we do, but also in seminars that I do, just a biblical vision for vocation that you see in scripture. And so what the effect that has is, it keeps work from being just this daily grind actually. It's much bigger and greater in God's understanding of work and vocation since he created work and really in doing faithful work as Christians, we're accomplishing his sovereign will in many many ways. So those are just some of the reasons why we do it.

Now I bring this up. I want to be very, very clear. I don't think churches have to do this at all. It's just a practice and something that I love to do. So I wouldn't want any pastor or member listening to this thinking that a church has to do this. Faithful churches will not have this kind of study or ministry in their church. But if you're interested, I'm glad to share resources because what I found, the way we've just said it to our churches, this is for any Christian in any vocation so that it's not just limited to business men, for example.

And we've just found a diversity of people in different vocations who are all united in Christ helping each other with the challenges that they face. And I think it's more fruit for us just beyond the weekly Bible studies that I'll do. And I usually do about a six week stretch, four to six week stretch, take a break, start another one, we'll choose a book and read it. And obviously I've got scripture we're reading throughout, praying for one another. I've also done a couple of, I don't know, three or four seminars over the years, which are more teaching moments and then typically after that doing a Q and A or some sort of small group discussion. So that's kind of what we've done so far. And because we're starting another one, I just wanted to speak about it again for consideration. Again, this is something a church doesn't have to do, but I've found it to be helpful in pastoring the people of Covenant Fellowship.

Benjamin Kreps:

Yeah, I so appreciate your example on that. There just appears to be no end to resources to strengthen, especially, people in full-time pastoral ministry working at churches. And I think a lot of our folks can sort of look at like, oh, you're doing the real work and we're just over here grinding and trying to make a living. And so what you're doing with that group is you're really, you're dignifying, you're honoring, you're seeking to serve people in your church who, in fact, almost none of them will ever be in full-time pastoral ministry. Most of the people we serve never will be. And so that kind of thoughtfulness I think is wonderful and I appreciate your example on that. So what do you do in the group? What's your plan maybe for the upcoming group?

Mark Prater:

Yeah, actually what we do is we have a book and we read the book together. I typically read out ahead and create a weekly curriculum that includes scriptures that they're to read and then the chapters for that week. And then each week I create discussion questions, send those out ahead of time just to give us a basis for conversation. Sometimes we get through the questions, sometimes we don't. We veer off and have some really good pockets of fellowship and conversation.

Just some books to recommend. If you're just getting started with this, Dan Doriani has written a book called Work: Its Purpose, Dignity and Transformation. You used that word dignity just a moment ago, Ben. That's what scripture does with work. It dignifies work because of how God understands work and that includes work of any kind; the stay-at-home mom to the person who works at the 7-11 to the person who's a CEO at a major organization. All of that work is dignified in God's sight. So that's a great start. If you're looking for a book to start with, that would be the one I'd recommend. A good biblical theology actually of work.

He also has a newer one and actually that's the book we're going to read beginning this week called Work That Makes a Difference. And he talks about why is work good and what makes it good. And then in all of that, his thesis, he unpacks challenges that Christians typically face in the workplace. Like what if I'm in a difficult job, do I stay there or not? What's God's will or what if I'm working for a difficult boss, love my work, but it's a difficult boss, how should I think about that biblically? And he does a really good job of addressing those things.

Just two or three more books I wanted to mention real quick. What I'm learning is people are facing the challenge of AI more and more. And I've mentioned this book in a previous podcast, but I found this is the best so far is God, Technology and the Christian Life by Tony Reinke. It's an excellent read and a good biblical treatment of how to understand technology. A book that's been around a long time, redeeming. Oh good, you got it right there. Excellent on cue. I didn't know you had that. That's funny.

Redeeming Productivity is also a wonderful book. If you're looking for something after reading Doriani and you want to give your folks a reformed worldview, for example, there's an older book called Creation Regained by Albert Wolters, and it's just presents a wonderful, reformed biblical worldview, which is basically creation, fall, redemption and consummation. But he unpacks it in a really good way.

And there's one other book called God and Money. We had a wonderful conversation over that book just a few years ago, and it actually stirred a lot in a number of people. One, in creating more desire to be generous because the book is about living on a more limited, make all you can, but live on a limited budget so that you can give money away. And I actually had a member of our church come up to me recently and he said, I've been thinking about that book and what I want to do, Mark, is talk with you about starting a group of guys that have means that I know both in the church and outside the church, I'm wondering if this could maybe even be something for other guys in Sovereign Grace to join us for support. And we have a retreat once a year, get together, we pray for one another, we talk about what we want to do in terms of our own living limitations, in terms of a budget, but what we want to give away.

So that's just one of the fruits that have come out of this Faith and Work group at our church. So I'm not promising that everybody's going to be generous in that regard, but I'm just grateful that when you put biblical tools in the hands of Christians who are in different vocations, some who have means, they, by the grace of God, just take it to heart and it's a reminder of just the joy and privilege we have to pastor the people that God has given us in our churches. And it is just an amazing thing to me, that one conversation is like, all glory to you, oh Lord, and isn't your grace amazing? And just want churches to enjoy that kind of interaction with their people. So something to consider.

Benjamin Kreps:

Wonderful. Yeah. Isn't it wonderful that in the kingdom of God there is no meaningless work when done for the glory of God, you can glorify and please the Savior through cleaning toilets or cleaning up after in the aftermath of a sick toddler. All of it matters to God when done for his glory in the grace he provides. And so what a privilege it is for us as pastors to be able to invest into the people in our church where they are each day working at their jobs and their vocations of various ways. So thanks for the idea and for your example, Mark. Thank you all for watching the podcast, checking it out. We'll see you here next week. Lord willing. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT:

Benjamin Kreps:

Hey everyone and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace Churches with our executive director. Mark, still enjoying what we experienced a couple of weeks ago at the Pastors Conference. Last episode, you highlighted some resources that you guys posted online from the Pastors Conference so that what happened there can continue to serve us going forward. And you wanted to highlight some of those resources including a bunch of testimonies that were deeply encouraging that we heard.

Mark Prater:

I do. God was very good to us in Orlando. I think we all look back and continue to marvel at how really good God was to us during the conference. And we hold a conference not just to experience it in the moment, but we want to use the conference to produce resources to serve our pastors and the members of our churches. And so that's why if you go to the events page of the Sovereign Grace website and you click on the Pastors Conference, we've got a number of resources there. The main sessions, the breakout sessions, I'm going to talk about a couple more today. But we also just published the videos of the testimonies that were shared. And I would encourage pastors or members of our churches to listen or to watch those because they really recount how God is at work through our family of churches throughout the world.

And there's just some encouraging, inspiring updates that I think anyone can benefit from all for the purpose of advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ for the glory of God alone. So if you're a pastor, think about who in your church might benefit from watching those, or maybe you could take them and show them on a Sunday morning or some small group context. They are there for the edification of your church. So that's something that just recently has been added. There's also the Spotify song list that includes the songs we sang at the conference. If you're interested in singing or listening to any of those songs, Bob did introduce a new song that David Zimmer wrote with Nathan Stiff and it's called Sing essentially. And it's a wonderful song that'll be on the Knowing God album that will come out next year. So there's a new song on there that you could sing as well. So just some of the resources that have been added and that our churches can benefit from.

Benjamin Kreps:

Yeah, I was losing my voice when I was at the conference and that song--I was attempting not to sing to protect my voice for a breakout that I taught on Wednesday--but that song came on. I could not, how can you not sing at the pastors conference? So I was sorely tempted and that is a wonderful song. So grateful for those resources and definitely we'll check out the Spotify list as well.

Last week you talked about a couple of breakout sessions taught by Josh Blount and Jeff Purswell in order to serve us in a couple of different vital areas, thinking about politics and our complementarian convictions. There were a couple more breakouts that you wanted to talk about.

Mark Prater:

I do, before I mention those two, let me just mention again, those main sessions and the breakout sessions are there not only for the edification and equipping of pastoral teams, but for the edification and equipping of members as well. So if you're a Sovereign Grace pastor listening to this or a pastor not in a Sovereign Grace church listening to this, those are resources that you should consider who in your church could benefit from. If you think the entire membership, make them aware of it. There may be small group leaders that you want to direct a main session to or a breakout session to. I find that, let's take for example the one we discussed last week regarding Josh's, Josh Blount's, complimentarian convictions breakout session. There's a lot of common questions that people have regarding Complementarian theology and our convictions there. That's just a great resource to use to give people to answer some of those questions. So just think in some strategic ways, some ways that you can serve your church by utilizing those resources.

I did want to highlight two other breakout sessions that are posted. There's one that you led, what I'm going to talk about in a moment, Ben, on our shaping virtues. And then the one I want to start with is a breakout session that Jon Payne led and taught regarding the privileges and pitfalls of pastoral teams. And it really is a team ministry breakout session. Jon just did a wonderful job of just saying, look, we like other denominations, we value plurality, plurality of elders that you see in scripture in leading the church. We can't just take it for granted. It's actually something we continue to have to remind ourselves of and what scripture says about it. So in his points, and by the way, his outline is available on the website, he uses this word renew.

So he talks about renew your sense of privilege of being on a pastoral team, renew your biblical convictions regarding pastoral teams or plurality. And in that point, he just talks about the overwhelming evidence for a plurality of elders that you see in the New Testament. And he makes the point that there, there's probably more passages on that than parenting, for example, that you find in the New Testament. So it matters to God. Renew your sense of pastoral fellowship or commitment to pastoral fellowship. We on pastoral teams really can really help one another to grow in Christ and how our godly example, not only as an individual pastor but as a team of pastors is so key to building Christ-like churches and then renew your love for fellow pastors. And I really appreciated that point because he just draws, he just used a number of texts to draw out how Paul in particular spoke about fellow pastors. He does so with appreciation and with affection and with encouragement. And that's something we continue to not have to renew but cultivate as we work with men on pastoral teams that we would have just a love for one another as we serve together. And not allowing the busyness of pastoral ministry to swallow those things up because of the tyranny of the urgent, but that we would continue to make plurality and team ministry not only a priority in our thinking because of our biblical convictions, but in our practice and how we fellowship and love one another. So just a really well done breakout session by Jon.

And then the other one is the one that you led, Ben, I think I've got the title right, How to Build a Gospel Culture in Your Church, using our shaping virtues. And Ben, I thought you just did an outstanding job teaching and leading that breakout session with a voice that you were losing by the way, and you got through all of that, but just how you laid it out biblically I thought was excellent.

And then you walk biblically through each of our Seven Shaping Virtues, which really are, as you said, the fruit of the gospel in our lives. So we devoted a breakout session to this because we do want to build Christ-like churches. And the gospel has this unstoppable power that does transform us and make us more like Christ as we pursue his work of sanctification in our lives. And so one of the things we hope for is the virtues, which are the fruit of the gospel are more and more evident in our lives as we grow in Christ. It's also what we hope people experience when they walk into a Sovereign Grace church. They experience, as you said, humility, joy, there's so many others that are there that you talked about, there are seven, generosity, encouragement, et cetera. And you just did a great job of laying those out.

And then you gave 10 ways to build your church culture with these virtues. And I thought those 10 ways were not just only practical and helpful, you included, I thought, just very helpful illustrations of the impact they had on your church or how they helped you address pastoral situations. I thought the illustrations in particular were very, very effective. So really, really well done. Another reason we asked you to do that particular breakout session, I shared this in my State of the Union and we'll probably devote an episode to my State of the Union address, but one of the things I said in my State of the Union, a concern I have for our family of churches as executive director, is that we're beginning to lose that virtue of encouragement. I don't know if it's because we've just gotten lax or we don't readily see evidences of grace in other's lives, but scripture commands us to encourage one another daily, is what the Hebrews text says. And so I want our churches to be filled with people that encourage one another. And so that's another reason for pastors or for members of the church to listen to your breakout session to cultivate that particular virtue in particular. So well done, Ben, on that breakout session.

Benjamin Kreps:

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. It's like so many of us historically have enjoyed not just rich biblical convictions and theology, but also this beautiful culture in Sovereign Grace. And I think just like the famous quote from D.A. Carson about the gospel is preached and believed in the first generation, assumed in the second generation lost in the third. I think you could say the same thing about a gospel culture as well if we're not attentive to that. So thanks for the opportunity to serve. That was wonderful. Looking forward to listening, I haven't heard Jon's yet, but I do want to hear that, grateful for Jon's heart for healthy elder teams and healthy pastors, and it's clearly evident in his care for us, including the paperwork that he developed for elder teams to work through together to help strengthen the fellowship and the health of the team. Certainly our churches notice, they take note, when there are healthy and happy pastors who love one another and together love the church. That is a wonderful experience for the people in our churches as well. So thank you for recommending these resources. Thank you to everybody who spoke, including the wonderful testimonies that really were a highlight. And thank you all for watching or reading or listening to the podcast. We'll see you here, Lord willing, next week. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT:

Ben Kreps:

Welcome to the Mark Prater Podcast, where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our Executive Director. Mark, it is May 11th, Thursday. You are clearly not at home because you are away celebrating your 44th anniversary with your wonderful wife. And as we were talking about before we started recording here, just on your heart, you've been thinking in light of your own anniversary about the importance of a pastor's marriage. Talk to us about that.

Mark Prater:

I have been. It's a joyful day for Jill and I. I honestly can't believe she still said yes 44 years ago. We are rejoicing in the grace of God, which I'll mention near the end of this podcast. But to say upfront, we wouldn't be here at 44 years, were it not for the grace of God, which we're so grateful for. And, I'm sure everyone, every believer, feels that way when they reach a wedding anniversary. But as you mentioned, it did get me thinking down the road about the importance of a pastor's marriage. And there are several reasons why a pastor's marriage is important. I'm only going to mention a few. The first one is that of faithfulness for the pastor in 1 Timothy 3:2. It's actually the second qualification that's mentioned that he should be the husband of one wife for life, unless obviously your wife were to pass.

But, that captures the one wife, husband of one wife. It captures faithfulness over time. And that's so important in our day and time that faithfulness continues to be modeled through pastors' marriages. It's so important. We're older, Jill and I, and I get thinking about Titus chapter 2, the exhortation to older men and to older women. He writes in Titus 2 that older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled; sound in faith, in love. And steadfastness is a similar word to faithfulness. And so, as an older man, I and other older men, we want to be faithful. We want to be steadfast in our marriages because it reveals the faithfulness of God.

And then for older women, verse 3, older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to too much wine. They are to teach what is good and so train younger women. And so there's this dignity that you see in the text. There's this reverence that's there that hopefully is a reflection of the grace of God as we grow older, a husband and wife remaining faithful for their entire marriage, their entire lives together. And, it reveals the grace of God. So that's just one reason.

A second reason I think a pastor's marriage is important, is that it does reveal the truth of our complimentarian values which is very, very important in our day for a number of different reasons. But how a husband loves his wife, which is a sacrificial love, and how a wife loves her husband, which is a sacrificial love, is so important. So a husband is to love his wife in the way Christ did by laying down his life as Ephesians 5 talks about.

And it's clear in the text that he has authority to lead, but he's not authoritarian at all. He is a man who leads with love, and he leads with gentleness, and he leads with strength, and he leads with wisdom. And it's that kind of leadership that makes it much easier for a wife to follow. There's this laying down of her life, loving her husband, supporting his leadership. And people can critique our complementarian values because of marriage. And, I just think that marriage is actually there to strengthen and reveal the complementary way that God has made us as men and women as seen in the way husbands and wives relate together. And we all run into conflict. I'll talk about this. So, the issue when we run into trouble is not our complementarian values. The issue is the sin in our hearts, obviously. And, another reason why we need the grace of God. And one other one, I think it reveals the importance of our ecclesiology, because Christ loves his church. That's the mystery that's being revealed there in Ephesians 5; how a husband loves his wife and how a wife respects her husband reveals this relationship between Christ and his church.

And as I travel through Sovereign Grace churches, I hear a lot of people say, I love my church. And there are Christians in other denominations and church organizations who say the same thing so it's not unique to Sovereign Grace. We Christians love the church, they love the people of God. They love the saints. And that's a reflection of Christ in them through the work of the Spirit when they say, I love my church. And that's what marriage is to reveal, partly, just how much we love the Church of God and how we relate to one another. So those are just some of the things I've been thinking about. Those are just a few of the reasons, and many more reasons, a pastor's marriage is important. But I wanted to mention them because I'm thinking about that today as a husband, obviously, and to encourage our pastors and wives to just make sure you're taking time to invest into your marriage.

Ben Kreps:

That's excellent encouragement and much needed. 1 Corinthians 10:12 says that if we think we're standing, take heed lest we fall. So we need regular reminders, like the ones that you're giving us. I think about our shaping virtues and the gospel centeredness that we rally around in Sovereign Grace, that is intended to work itself out in the way that we live with one another in marriage. And so those shaping virtues, just thinking about those and how they function within our complementarianism, with humility and joy and love and generosity and all of those things that make up what it means to have a gospel centered marriage. You have some thoughts for us, practically, before you go. Why don't you share those with us?

Mark Prater:

Yeah. Practically, first of all, I just want to say that all pastors' marriages are going to look different. Different couples are put together for specific reasons in the wisdom of the sovereignty of God. So practices should never become principles, obviously. Just a few things I'm going to mention are going to look different for different couples, but just one is to continue to cultivate memories together as you walk through life together as husband and wife, faithfully, by the grace of God, for years. And that includes obviously romancing one another, but finding ways to surprise one another and to delight one another. There should be an evident delight and joy in marriage that emerges from a pastor's marriage, by the grace of God.

Another practice is to be purposeful in working out conflict. All pastors' marriages, all marriages, have conflict because we remain fallen people. And, we have to be committed not to let conflict linger, but to really work at it. And when we can't work it out ourselves, enjoy the fellowship of the church and those that know us well, whether that's a fellow pastor and wife or a member of your church that can help you walk through conflict. One quick resource is Rob Flood's book on marriage and communication, it is really helpful in that regard, if you haven't read that.

And then a third one that just came to mind is the practical aspect of God’s wisdom in putting a husband a wife together, sovereignly, and we can benefit from one another, the wisdom God has given our spouses, making sure that we're drawing each other out asking; hey, what do you think about this? And, that looks different for different marriages, depending on the relationship and gift mix, et cetera. But I often ask Jill her perspective, or I'm thinking about a decision that needs to be made, and I'm just, hey, can you give me your perspective? And she knows when I'm asking that I don't have to do what she says; and sometimes I don't. But I find her to be a real gift to me that way. As I look back on 44 years and think ahead, I'm grateful for the wisdom that God has given her that I've benefited from as I think ahead however many more years we have together. I remain dependent upon that wisdom. So just another way to think, when you have conversations, it benefits, it deepens your relationship with one another.

Let me just close by saying this. I wrote in my journal this morning, and was just thanking God for the grace that he has given Jill and me for 44 years and feeling the dependence upon that grace for whatever years we have remaining together. And just want to commend and give God all the glory and all the credit for anything that we've enjoyed in our marriage because we wouldn't have it apart from his grace, and we wouldn't have that grace, as you mentioned, Ben, apart from Christ and his finished work in the gospel. So it is a day not just to rejoice, but to give Christ glory.

Ben Kreps:

Wonderful counsel and wise suggestions for us in our marriages as pastors. Want to also encourage any guy who might be reading this or watching this: if you're struggling in an area like communication, come into the light. Find a trusted fellow pastor and his wife and sit down, talk about that. Receive counsel. My wife and I have done that a number of times and have been deeply helped by that. So you're not stuck, is what I would say. We have brothers and sisters, trusted brothers, that can help us do all of these things that you're describing. So thank you, Mark. Congratulations to you and Jill on 44 years of marriage, by God's grace. Thank you all for watching or reading. We'll see you here next week, Lord willing. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Ben Kreps:

Welcome to the Mark Prater podcast, where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our Executive Director. Mark, One of the hallmarks in Sovereign Grace, our culture, for a long period of time when it comes connecting as pastors, is that we build relationally. It is a joyful hallmark of our culture of grace. And I know you have a passion to see not just enjoying the past 40 years of that relational connectivity, but also for the next generation of younger pastors that are being raised up to also enjoy that as well. Talk to us about that.

Mark Prater:

Yeah. I'm very grateful for one of our founders, CJ Mahaney, who has built Sovereign Grace that way for 40 years. As you mentioned, Ben, it's just been a part of our culture in Sovereign Grace. And CJ led us that way because it's biblical. It's what you see in the New Testament. You study the epistles in the New Testament, and both Paul and Peter, they mention people by specific names, people they know, people they are friends with, people they've done ministry with. I think a great illustration is 2 Timothy 4, that last section, verses 9 through the end of the chapter where Paul writes his very last letter. So these are the last things he's talking about. And in that section, he mentioned 16 different people by name.

Now one of them has deserted him. That's Demas, and there's a warning about Alexander the coppersmith, who's done him great harm, as he said. But everybody else, the other 14, are friends that he's doing ministry with. And, he puts friendship, I think, in the right place. He loves those men. He has affection for those men. He would like to be with them, but if you read that part of his letter, he's deploying them in ministry. So, friendship doesn't trump mission, actually friendship is used in the advancement of the mission of the gospel that you see there in Paul's letter. And I think we tried to take a similar approach in Sovereign Grace, to build that way, because it's one expression of how our interdependence gets worked out, and we try to capture that in a number of ways.

Our seven shared values would be one of those ways. Our seventh value is united in fellowship, mission and governance. And just to remind us, especially our pastors who are listening, this is, this is what is written about that value. It says this, indeed the New Testament testifies to a vibrant interdependence among churches in the first century. And then we seek to express a similar interdependence through our common fellowship, mission and governance. Our fellowship extends beyond mere denominational affiliation. We are committed to applying the gospel together in relationships that foster mutual encouragement, care, and a glad pursuit of Christ-likeness. And I thought, boy, that's well written. I think it is just well written by Jeff because it captures why relationships are important as an expression of interdependence. And that for us as pastors, we have that kind of fellowship that we need not only in our churches, most importantly, but outside of our churches with men, other Sovereign Grace pastors, leading other Sovereign Grace churches, where we have true fellowship. And the whole purpose of it is growing in Christ-like character. And we pray that's used to advance the mission of the gospel. So it's a biblical reason why we want to build relationally in Sovereign Grace. And as I get older, and I think about the next generations in Sovereign Grace, my prayer is that those men, those second, third generation pastors and beyond, would continue to build relationally as well, because it is biblical and because it's always marked our culture.

Ben Kreps:

Amen. Well, Easter season is over, but our R A E season is here. So pastors throughout Sovereign Grace are gathering for the Regional Assembly of Elders. The Regional Assembly of Elders is a time for us to gather, to do business. We have business we need to do together as a region, but that is not purely why we gather as guys who go, know. It plays a key role, function, to help us build relationally together. Isn't that right?

Mark Prater:

It does, that's exactly right. Our Regional Assembly of Elders, it's sort of the spring RAE season, as you mentioned, Ben. Several Regional Assembly of Elders have been meeting. Yours just met this week. The northeast meets beginning tomorrow. We're recording this on a Thursday, we meet on Friday. And, we do get denominational business done. But as you know, our shared value says it's not just about denominational affiliation. Those regional assemblies have been used to equip pastors as well, through theological training, and also just to cultivate relationships among pastors who lead our churches in a given region. And it's just been so sweet to watch it. I think when our polity first started, some guys wondered, is this going to hinder us building relationally? And actually the opposite's been true. Our polity has been used in Regional Assembly of Elders in particular to actually strengthen our relationships with one another.

And I was just at the East Central region last week, a region led by CJ Mahaney. And the time together was just so rich. It's a region that loves one another. Pastors are there for one another and encourage one another. And it was just such a joy. Actually, after I returned, got an email from Jake Cronin. Jake Cronin graduated from the Pastors College two or three years ago. He's been serving as a pastoral intern in Cornerstone Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. And he was just thanking me for coming. And he was just talking about the relational time that the Regional Assembly had together. And he said this, I've known pastors who have been in ministry 30 years or more, and their experience has been one of loneliness. And he said, I'm just so glad that so far in my ministry experience, it's been exactly the opposite. I've rich relationships. And so that was only encouraging because of what he enjoyed. It's encouraging to me, because Jake is probably a second or third generation pastor in Sovereign Grace, and he gets it. He understands why it's important to build relationally. So, I'm just grateful that God is giving us young men who will be leading Sovereign Grace churches in the future and our family of churches in the future, who I believe will be committed to building relationally in Sovereign Grace.

Ben Kreps:

Amen. Yes. At our regional assembly, we did business. We passed a guy in his oral exam, for ordination. Our church plant, Redeeming Grace Church in Mechanicsburg, was officially affirmed. And the partnership was signed, yeah, you signed the partnership agreement. So we're excited to have an official Sovereign Grace Church plant. We did that business though, in the context of friendship. And so when we voted to affirm the church plant, for instance, I was gathered with men who were voting, who have prayed for me and my church for the past several years, and have cared for me and invested in what we're doing as well. We did it together when we announced that this young man had passed his oral exam. It was celebratory because there is care and affection in that room as we do that business.

And I sought to encourage some of the younger guys just observing the younger pastors. I'm 46, I'm not a young pastor, but there were younger pastors there. And to see them relating to each other and encouraging each other, and praying with one another, gave me great hope for the future. It's a joy to see what we've enjoyed over the years being duplicated, replicated, in the next generation of pastors. I praise God for that. And thank you, Mark, for your thoughts on all of us and your encouragement to us. Thank you all for watching or reading. We'll see you here next week, Lord willing. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Ben Kreps:

Hey everyone and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast, where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our Executive Director. Mark, before we started recording here, you were telling me about how you've been studying a topic that's of vital importance when it comes to pastoral ministry. That of the biblical motif of shepherding, applied to the role of a pastor. Talk to us about that.

Mark Prater:

I have been studying that imagery and it's affecting my heart, my soul and mind, yet again. I can't believe we get to do what we do as pastors. Isn't it, isn't it amazing? That God would call us to care for his people. That's one of the net effects of this study. I can't believe I get to do what I do. And it's such a joy to be a pastor who gets to shepherd God's people. As you know, throughout scripture, the people that are called to lead God's people are referred to as shepherds. You see that in the Old Testament. In fact, through Ezekiel, you see God commend the good shepherds and condemn the bad shepherds in Ezekiel 34.

And we get to the New Testament, and Jesus says, I am the good shepherd. He refers to himself as the Good Shepherd. Peter calls him the Chief Shepherd in 1 Peter: 2. And 1 Peter 5:2 he calls pastors, he's speaking to elders, to shepherd the flock of God among you. And one of my favorite verses in scripture: Acts 20:28, a verse that just very dear to me, he says, pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. So the people that we're called to care for as pastors, to oversee, they're called a flock. And so by implication, we are shepherds. So just to study this in scripture has affected me.

Some other resources I wanted to recommend: Tim Laniak's book Shepherds After My Own Heart, which is in the Gray/Silver series that most of us are familiar with. Just a wonderful biblical theology of shepherds in scripture. There's also the Shepherd Leader by Tim Witmer, which is a really helpful book. There's another book that I don't have right here in front of me, also by Tim Laniak: While Shepherds Watch Their Flocks. And it's broken down into a 40 day devotional that is the result of him spending part of a sabbatical, I think about a year, with shepherds in the Middle East, just interviewing them and getting to understand what they do to enrich his understanding of the shepherding imagery throughout scripture. So I would commend that book. One other resource we've both listened to recently is the Ordinary Pastor podcast that has devoted a couple of episodes to the Pastor as Shepherd. So, those are all wonderful resources that you can check out.

And, as pastors, I think it's important that we remember that we are shepherds first of all, because Christ is the chief shepherd. He is the good shepherd, and we labor on his behalf as his under shepherds. But it does shape, it does affect our hearts and dispositions and our mindsets towards the people God has entrusted to our care when we understand ourselves and think about ourselves as shepherds.

Ben Kreps:

Yeah. I would also recommend CJ's class at the Pastors College on a pastoral ministry. It's a wonderful, unfolding metaphor for what we do as pastors. And I aim to get back there someday. It's been a while and I could be refreshed. It's a great class. So why do you think it's so vital that we keep this in front of us as we go about our work as pastors?

Mark Prater:

I think it's vital because it does shape what we do and how we think about the people we are called to care for. In the Acts 20 passage I mentioned earlier, 17 - 38, Paul has obviously gathered the Ephesian elders in Miletus, as our listeners know, and he's speaking to them for the very last time. And he begins his speech, the only speech in the book of Acts given to Christians, actually the elders, the pastors from Ephesus. And he begins the speech by saying, you know how I lived among you? And so there's that lived among you language that you find. Then later he talks about shepherding the flock that God has entrusted to your care. You do that by living among the people. I think that's important for us because it keeps ministry from being professional.

We have to be careful of that subtle drift in our hearts as pastors, that we don't become professionals and we're somehow detached from the people that we're called to pastor and preach to and care for. And the other thing is that it allows us to make ministry very, very real. Because when we live among our people, we're aware of the issues that they're facing daily in their lives. And that not only affects our pastoral counseling and how we help them apply God's word to what they're facing, it also affects our preaching because right in the application in particular, we're able to bring specific application for a specific flock, for specific issues that they're facing. And that's gonna be different from church to church. So it's so important that we live among our people and not just live among them but know them. One of the things that Tim Laniak talks about in his book, While Shepherds Watch Their Flocks, he interviewed a desert shepherd called Amir who said there's a difference between village shepherds and desert shepherds. Desert shepherds, we spend time with our flock out in the desert. We know exactly what they're facing. And I thought that that's what we want to be in Sovereign Grace. We want to be desert shepherds who know exactly what our people are facing.

I think shepherding imagery is important because we are called to teach them, preach to them, and as I mentioned just a moment ago, we'll do that more effectively if we know the flock and the challenges that they're facing. And the wonderful thing about shepherding imagery, it highlights the fact that we're called to protect our people. Paul says in Acts 20, beware and be watchful because fierce wolves will come in amongst the flock. And we do that primarily by protecting our people from false teaching. Shepherding imagery causes something to rise up within a pastor and say, I'm gonna fiercely protect my people from false doctrine so that they don't go astray. It becomes personal, I think. In Tim Laniak's book, he talks about how shepherds know their sheep by name. He tells this one story of a shepherd who had a flock of 2000 sheep, and somehow seven got lost. And he knew there were seven missing because he knew each 2000 of his sheep by name. Now, that was stunning to me when I read that. Now that doesn't mean as pastors, as our church grows, we're gonna know just everybody by name <laugh>, but on a pastoral team, we should know collectively the people in our church. And so it is just very personal in that sense, and warms the pastor's heart to love his people, when you think of yourself as a shepherd.

So just some of the ways that I want to continue to call us in Sovereign Grace, as pastors, to think of ourselves as shepherds and to shepherd the flock of God that is among us.

Ben Kreps:

Yeah. Excellent. Thank you for that encouragement. I mean, it is amazing grace that any of us have been converted by the grace of God through the gospel, but then to be called to be under shepherds, under the Chief Shepherd. That's enough for a daily wonder as we go about our work. So thank you for the encouragement, Mark. Thank you all for watching or reading. We'll see you here, Lord willing, next week. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Ben Kreps:

Hey everyone, and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast, where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our Executive Director. Mark, we're ending the year currently recording this just a few days before New Year's Day. Shout out to everyone that watches the podcast, reads the podcast. Happy New Year's to you. But as we come to the end of the year, Mark, you wanted to talk about something that you exhorted us to consider at your State of the Union address at the Pastors Conference. And that is the need for us to pursue holiness in our churches. This is on your mind and heart as you're thinking about entering the new year. Talk to us about that.

Mark Prater:

It is. And just to echo Ben, Happy New Year to you. As I think about Sovereign Grace in the future, and in this next year, 2023, there are a number of things that I carry on my heart that I've been lifting up to the Lord in prayer. And one of those is how we will walk the Christian walk in 2023 as a family of churches. And I think about our future. There's a poem that Robert Frost wrote. It's one of his best known poems called The Road Not Taken. And the very last line in that poem says, "two roads diverged in a wood. And I, I took the one less traveled by, and that made all the difference". And taking the right path does make all the difference. And we see that throughout scripture.

The wisdom literature in particular, and in the book of Proverbs, the word path, or its plural form paths, is used 23 different times. And it's always used to contrast two different ways to go two different paths. There's a wrong path, and there is a right path that's marked by holiness and righteousness. And that's what I see before us in Sovereign Grace. And I pray that we will go down the righteous path, the one that is marked by a number of things, one of those being just holiness. As I think about our future, I, I want us to continue to build by the grace of God and cultivate holiness in our churches, meaning Christ-like character, so that we will more distinctly contrast the culture that we are living in. A culture that everybody knows is filled with a lot of angst, that feels more polarized, and that we feel as Christians moving more quickly away from the word of God.

So if we would, by the grace of God, be intentional to pursue holy living, in obedience to God's word, I think our our churches are gonna continue to contrast the culture, and that's gonna be attractive to those that Christ is drawing to himself because he's gonna find a group of people that are committed to God's word, that are happy, joyful people that love one another, that despite their disagreements, exist in unity together. And that's just gonna be a haven for many people from the culture that feels so much different; for them to be drawn too. Because I think it's the corporate witness of the church that Christ is gonna use in many cases to draw people to himself. And as I shared at our Council of Elders meeting, this is not a new phenomenon.

This is a historic one. There's a book that Alan Kreider has written called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church, and it's the study of the Early New Testament church. And he begins the book by saying that scholars have debated for years how this marginal, small, Eastern Mediterranean religion grew despite being discriminated against and despised; how it grew so quickly that by the fifth century, it was the predominant religion in the Roman Empire. And his introduction summarizes a number of scholars in their thoughts. But Kreider gives four reasons why the early church grew. And the first two that he mentions, the first one, is patience. That that Christians were patient. He says this, Christians believe that God is patient, and that Jesus embodied patience, and they concluded that they trusting in God should be patient, not controlling events, not anxious or in a hurry, and never using force to achieve their end.

So they were patient people because they trusted in God. Then the second one that he mentions is this word he uses called habitus, which means habitual Christ-like behavior in the way he's using it. This is what he says. The sources rarely indicate that the early Christians grew in number because they won arguments. That's an important thing in our observation, in our culture today, where everybody's arguing with one another, right? He says the sources rarely indicate that the early Christians grew in number because they won arguments. Instead, they grew because they're habitual behavior rooted in patience, was distinctive and intriguing. Their behavior said what they believed, it was an enactment of their message. And the sources indicate that it was their habitus, their Christ-like behavior more than their ideas that appealed to the majority of non-Christians who came to join them. And so I think that's still still true today, that our pursuit as a family of churches individually and collectively together, individually as Christians, individual churches, and collectively as a family of churches, our pursuit by the grace of God to grow in Christlikeness this year, it will have an impact, an influence and effect in the various nations that our churches exist in. And so that's my prayer that we would grow in holiness in the coming year.

Ben Kreps:

Excellent. And a much needed word, not only in our day, but in every day. The good news is that the zealous pursuit of holiness, pursuit of godliness is not relegated to pastors or spiritual dynamos or charismatic personalities. This is within reach of every Christian, every man, woman, and child that has been redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

Mark Prater:

Yes. Amen. And that's so true, and we need that ongoing grace of God to grow in holiness. But the point you're making is very, very important because Alan Kreider ends his book by saying that the key to the growth of the Christian Church, the early New Testament church was actually ordinary Christians. He says this, God used not influential or powerful people, but ordinary Christians to achieve a huge end. The churches grew in many places, taking varied forms. They proliferated because the faith that ordinary Christians embodied was attractive to people who were dissatisfied and encountered Christians who embodied a new manner of life that pulled them toward what the Christians called rebirth into a new life. And so, I think that observation historically is still true today, that God primarily uses ordinary Christians like you and me, Ben, ordinary Christians for a huge end, which is the advancement of the gospel and the building of his church. So that more who are dissatisfied around us would come to Christ and know him as Lord and Savior.

Ben Kreps:

Yeah, that's excellent. We are all ordinary Christians, but all of us having the same extraordinary grace to empower what you're describing here and encouraging us toward a couple of resources. In case guys aren't aware, the recent Sovereign Grace Journal has our Seven Shaping Virtues. One of them is godliness. And so there's an article in there with practical application also. I've been listening this morning to the Ordinary Pastor Podcast, a very fine podcast. Jon Payne, Jared Meller are doing good work on that. And there is an episode of that podcast, a discussion about godliness and the pursuit of godliness and what you're describing. So, check that out if you haven't already. Once again, Happy New Year. Apparently the holiday we're celebrating today is wear a gray sweatshirt to the podcast day.

Mark Prater:

<laugh>. Yes. Yes. It's,

Ben Kreps:

Thank you all for watching or reading. We'll see you here next week, Lord willing. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Benjamin Kreps:

Hey everyone. And welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of churches with our Executive Director. I'm sure a lot of folks that are listening or reading this episode of the podcast are familiar with Carl Trueman's book The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self which created quite a stir. Rightfully so, but actually he has a new volume out called Strange New World which I think is a distillation of The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self . I haven't read it yet but it has a lot of the more complex ideas of the original book. And you're reading Strange New World and want to share some thoughts with us.

Mark Prater:

I am. I'm just about done reading Strange New World and you're right, it is a reduction, a shorter version of The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. I wanted to mention it on the podcast, because I want to encourage especially our pastors, and anyone else listening or reading this podcast to read this book because I think it is very helpful for pastors and it can be very helpful for members of our churches as well, in understanding how we pastor and how we preach, but how we actually reach the lost with the gospel. And it's important to track the history, that Truman tracks so well, the history of the sexualization of psychology. And then the politicizing of sex, sexualization, is really what he talks about.

And through all of that, what has emerged over time and I think we're seeing very clearly in the culture is an expressive individualism he mentions in the book. He calls it the modern self and says we're dealing with the modern self in this strange new world. And it's a strange new world because the modern self does not map onto biblical anthropology. This is what he says: “The modern self assumes the authority of inner feelings and sees authenticity as defined by the ability to give social expression to the same. The modern self also assumes that society at large will recognize and affirm this behavior because "self" is defined by what it is, what is called expressive individualism”. And then he just says this in short; “the modern self is one where authenticity is achieved by acting outwardly in accordance with one's inner feelings”.

So you can see what really is authoritative in that definition is how one feels about one's self, how one feels about their sexual identity, even about one's self. And to give expression to that is one way the modern self works itself out in our culture today. So it's really that point that I think it's important for us to understand as pastors in terms of how we preach and how we pastor. We don't compromise truth, but some of the people sitting in our churches are sort of relating to the world and they've embraced that worldview. And for members, we're encountering unbelievers that have also embraced that worldview. And so there's sort of a collision; a little bit of a biblical worldview and a worldview of the modern self. And that's just one of the reasons I think it's such a good book to read.

Benjamin Kreps:

Yeah, that sounds excellent. By way of reminder, as well, thankfully, we've been served well over the past couple years and talking about these issues, including Josh Blount's breakout session Our Citizenship is in Heaven: Christ's Church and Cultural Pressures, that outline is actually on the sgcpastors.com website. For the audio, go to the Sovereign Grace website under Events, Pastors Conference 2021. If you haven't heard that one, I encourage you to give it a listen.

As you read these things and you think about them, how do you think about us in our churches, pastors in Sovereign Grace churches, how we interact with these things, how we apply these kinds of cultural observations to the way that we pastor and care for folks, and with evangelism?

Mark Prater:

Yeah. Great question. In fact, I'm so glad you mentioned Josh's breakout session. It's outstanding. He did that breakout session after The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self had already been published. I don't believe at that time, Strange New World had been published yet. So some of the themes I'm talking about here in this short podcast will actually be helped by even more in Josh's breakout session that you mentioned, Ben. So thanks so much for mentioning that. I think what we have to be aware of in terms of reaching out to people and doing evangelism or pastoring folks who are either new to the church or maybe members of our churches that are being influenced by this, by our culture and the worldview of modern self, it really gets at identity. Not only identity in terms of gender identity that we're seeing the world wrestle with, but also sexual orientation as well. And I thought Trueman had a very good observation when he says when the Christian objects to homosexuality we do that because that's what scripture teaches, obviously.

We believe that it is biblically wrong for men to have sex with men, women to have sex with women. So when we object to homosexuality, a person may think that we are objecting to a set of sexual desires or sexual practices, but the gay man sees these desires as part of who he is in his very essence. The old Chestnut of "love the sinner and hate the sin" simply does not work in a world where the sin is the identity of the sinner. “And the two cannot be separated even at a conceptual level in a time when the normative notion of self-hood is psychological, then to hate the sin is to hate the sinner. Christians who fail to note this shift are going to find themselves very confused by the incomprehension of, and indeed the easy offense taken by the world around it”.

I thought that's just really helpfully said. We really have to think through then, how do we talk to people who are in a gay lifestyle? How do we share the gospel with them? It's really, really important, recognizing that what we view as their sin is actually also their identity. And so that really takes careful thought of what we have to do and that sort of leaves us thinking that sounds a little bit hopeless. What do we do as the church? I think we have great hope. We have great hope, not only in the gospel of Jesus Christ, we have great hope in, I think, the church being the church and strikingly different than the culture that is around us as we continue to just embrace God's word.

This is one of the things that Trueman says: "the church protests the wider culture by offering a true vision of what it means to be a human being made in the image of God." And that's so well said because some of the issues that people are wrestling with do get to a biblical anthropology who God has made you as a man or as a woman. And that is to be celebrated. Yes, that is to be lifted up as a gift from God. And then our sexuality in terms of you know, sex between one man and one woman within the gift of marriage is something that God has designed for our good, so a prohibition regarding adultery or prohibition regarding a gay lifestyle, those prohibitions are meant to protect something that is very good.

And when we follow scripture, we'll be enjoyed and will provide a stark contrast to the world around this. So we have to keep preaching what we believe the Bible teaches. And we have to preach Christ because all of us fail to meet the Bible's demands. And all of us are are sinners who are in need of grace. So as Christians, we're not better than those who are wrestling with gender identity. We're not better than those who may be living a gay lifestyle. We all need the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think that posture and that tone, which is gonna be very important for us, ultimately will help win the day, at least get a hearing for the gospel itself.

Benjamin Kreps:

Yeah, that's excellent, Mark. And as I think about our family of churches and grateful that we have churches that are pastored by men who combine the courage to speak God's word plainly, but also have the care and compassion to do it with love and heart for those who need Jesus. So thanks for the book recommendation. There's also a study guide for Strange New World that would be helpful to guys. I know I'll be picking it up.

Mark Prater:

There is. And he actually has study questions in Strange New World after each of the chapters as well, just to mention that.

Benjamin Kreps:

Excellent. Well, thanks, Mark. And thank you all for watching or reading. We'll see you here next week. Lord, Willing. Bye for now.

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone. And welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of churches with our Executive Director. Mark, by now, most of the pastors in Sovereign Grace have read about, or maybe even have gone through the the team health evaluation tool that Jon Payne and Mickey Connolly and Jared Mellinger developed to serve our teams. Why this tool for our teams? Can you explain what the thinking is behind it?

Mark Prater:
Yeah. I'm so grateful for Jon and Mickey and Jared's work. We asked them as a Leadership Team to work collaboratively on this tool. It's a tool by the way that anyone can find on our church development website: sgcleaders.com. If you go to the October 19, 2021 blog post that Jon wrote you'll find the Team Health Evaluation tool there.

We asked these guys to put this tool together because really for this reason: what our experience has taught us is that typically where you find a healthy eldership team, you find a healthy church. And where you find a church struggling a bit, many times, actually most times, there are struggles on the pastoral team. So we've gotta be intentional as pastors and as pastoral teams to pay attention to our team health. And quite honestly, I think it's easy to set that aside given the demands and busyness of ministry, given the real legitimate needs that people have in your church. It's easy for that to fall down on the list, but we need to pay attention to team health and Jon and Mickey and Jared have really served us by giving us a tool to evaluate team health.

And the purpose of it is not just growing as a team. The purpose is to strengthen the church and have a healthy church and ultimately to bring glory to Jesus Christ, the great shepherd who is over our church. So that's why we have the Team Health Evaluation tool.

Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, seems to me, it arrived at a providential time after the last couple of years and the conflicts and struggles we all experienced in our churches. This is a good time to get into how our teams are doing together. What kind of categories are we talking about in this this tool?

Mark Prater:
Yeah, just to remind guys, the categories, which I think are really good, the categories contained in this tool, first of all there’s a structures category. What structures do you have in place? Meaning; what meetings do you regularly have, whether it's elders meetings to lead the church and what structures do you have in place for care? Like small group meetings that pastors and wives participate in. So that's one category and there's a number of questions under that category.

The second category is decisions; how are decisions made? And a lot of good questions about how decisions are made. What do you do when you disagree? Does everyone feel that they can share their perspective, honestly? How do you handle the person that has a minority voice on a decision? These are questions under the decisions category.

And then relational harmony; it's looking at relationships on the team, working relationships together. What kind of culture does your team sort of embody? And then lastly; conflicts, are there any current conflicts and how do you work through conflicts and what if you can't resolve a conflict? So those are some of the categories that are contained in the health evaluation too. And I found very helpful questions in each of those categories.

Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah. Well actually we're going through this tool with our team. Jon Payne is coming in this weekend. So looking forward to that, and you're working through that tool locally at Covenant Fellowship. What are your thoughts if any as you've worked through these categories and given thought to them, any reflection on what you've seen so far?

Mark Prater:
Yeah, I'm working through it right now, just about finished completing it because we've asked Mickey Connolly to come in about a month and just sit down with us as a team and help us assess our health. So we're trying to get those evaluations to him by this Saturday. So he's got about a month to look at them. What I've found in working through it, and it takes some time to work through the questions, I found the questions to be really helpful. First of all, there are questions that you would think of but I don't take time to think about. And I just need to do that more as one member of the Covenant Fellowship team. I think secondly, it's revealed where I think we're doing okay in some areas, but there's been a few questions where I thought, that may just be a weakness for us. And that may be something that we need to talk with Mickey about and see how we can grow and be strengthened as a team. So I've found the team evaluation tool, not just an exercise or a formality, but actually something very helpful to help me think about what my role is as a member of the Covenant Fellowship team and our team overall.

Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. Well, thank you to the Leadership Team, to Jon and others who have helped develop this tool for our teams. I mean, we receive this as an expression of care for our churches in Sovereign Grace. So thank you. Thank you, Mark, for your thoughts, and thank you everyone for watching. I'm looking forward to reporting back after we work through the tool and commend it to the other guys in Sovereign Grace. So we'll see you here next week, Lord willing. Bye for now.