You Ask, We Answer: Podcast Q&A (Ep. 2)
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone, and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our executive director. Mark, we are back with another mail bag, another "you asked, we answer" because we have a question from someone who watches the podcast. None other than young Timothy Praveen, actually, from Covenant Fellowship, the church you serve. And he asks a really good question, an important question I think that we want to talk about on this episode. So Timothy's question is this, he expresses, he's been listening for a few months, so there's somebody out there listening and they're just happy. And we're happy.
But Timothy asks, his question is about the gifts of the Spirit. He writes, as a younger member of the church, keeping in mind verses like 1 Corinthians 14:1, how would I earnestly desire spiritual gifts? Great question. How would someone get them and how would you know if you have it and why would I need to have it? Or, at least desire it when there are others in the church who have that gift? Well, of course Timothy is referring to 1 Corinthians 14:1 which reads, pursue love and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. And this is a great question too, because this is a clear biblical exortation, biblical command that has been given to us. And so we want to lean in of course, to what God's will is for us as we live together in the church and using the gifts that he's given us.
So Mark, why would we need to have spiritual gifts or at least desire spiritual gifts when there are others in the church who have spiritual gifts?
Mark Prater:
Yeah, great questions, Timothy. And Ben and I, we love getting questions like this from any member of our churches, but especially younger men who love the church. So thank you for submitting it. That's the place I wanted to start, that last part as you said, Ben, why even pursue the gifts at all? And if other people have got gifts or use them, why do I even need to use them? It's a great question. And in answering that, I want to read a couple of quotes from Jeff Purswell's book, The Spirit and the Church: Priorities from 1 Corinthians 12-14. That's a small book that we have on our website. And Timothy, if you will submit your address through the markkprater website, your mailing address, I'm going to send you this book as a gift for submitting such an excellent question.
But I think Jeff begins his book under a subtitle, Scope and Relevance, saying this, it speaks into this question. He says, first of all, this text, meaning 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 has the church in view far from a theological treatise on the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 deals with the Spirit's role among the people of God as he manifests God's presence in endues the church with gifts and empowers and builds up the church as God's people, for pastors in particular. These chapters equip us with pneumatology that is aimed at the church. And it's just a wonderful step back. Look at these chapters from the 30,000 foot view observation from our dear friend Jeff Purswell. He's right. These chapters aim at the church and how the church can be strengthened and the church be built up through the use of the gifts that God has given God's people.
In fact, if we don't pursue the gifts and if we're not using the gifts actively in the power the Spirit gives us, the church will be weaker and the church won't be as healthy as it could. So I'd begin with that, Timothy, why should you pursue the gifts when others have them? Because God not only commands you to do so in 1 Corinthians 14:1, it is because of the heart people have for the church and it really is because of God's heart for the local church that his church will be strengthened as people in the church use their gifts to strengthen the body, the body of Christ.
And I just think Jeff goes on to unpack that really, really well. He lists six priorities in his book for 1 Corinthians 12 through 14. I'm just going to mention two here. The first one is the priority of diversity. Just how a diverse group of people saved by the gospel using a diverse list of gifts or diverse giftings to serve the church is a wonderful portrait first of all of how the gospel reaches every tribe, tongue, and nation. It does that. And when people use their gifts together in the context of the local church, it reveals a wonderful diversity. And that's one of the priorities that you see in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14.
So Jeff says this, fundamentally, spiritual gifts are gracious endowments of a generous God, not personal accomplishments or badges of spirituality. As such, they are to be neither gloried in nor viewed suspiciously, but rather, gratefully received and then used because when we use them in that way as a diverse group of people saved by the gospel using a diverse group of gifts, we actually reflect something of God himself. Because in 1 Corinthians 12, 4-6, it talks about these varieties of gifts or varieties of service. And in those few verses, those three verses, each member of the trinity is mentioned; the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father. And so when we use our gifts, we reveal something of the diversity of how the Trinity functions, how they each have specific roles or responsibilities in fulfilling what God has for his church. And so you should want to participate Timothy, because in doing so, you are reflecting something of the gospel and reflecting something of the nature of the trinity itself.
And then Jeff mentions the priority of unity. Of course, you see that in 1 Corinthians 12 with the body imagery that Paul uses there that the eye can't say to the ear, I have no need of you. And so when we use our gifts, we reflect something of the unity of the trinity as well and we actually strengthen the unity of the church. It's a infinite wisdom revealed to us in terms of how the unity of the church functions when the gifts are used in that way. And so Jeff writes this in that section. He says, when discerning spiritual gifts, our eyes almost relatively turned inward, rather to either to fixate upon ourselves or to compare ourselves with others favorably or unfavorably. This text and indeed the thrust of the entire New Testament radically reorients our individual thinking to a Christ-centered corporate focus. Every member of Christ's body has been immersed in the Spirit's life giving power. That's what a Christian is, 1 Corinthians 12, verses 12 through 13, and every member of the church has been vitally united with Christ and therefore vitally united with all believers. Their interests are our interests, their joys are joys, their suffering are suffering. Every member of the church has been gifted by the Spirit and in such a way that members are interdependent, 1Corinthians 12:18. There is a divine configuration to the body of Christ such that all members need each other and therefore they appreciate each other, depend upon each other and honor each other. That is really well written in terms of revealing the unity of the church.
So we want to pursue the gifts because every member of the church is vital to the unity of the church and to the health of the church. And just one other thought, why should you do this? You mentioned already, and I made a reference, 1 Corinthians 14: 1, it is a command. We are commanded by God and commands are good for us because they meet a need, and God wants us to enjoy the life of the local church by using our gifts to build it up.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes, I say this with all due respect, when others perhaps want to say something like 1 Corinthians 14:1 is not to be listened to and obeyed, I can't help but think and wonder where's the list of all of the commands in the New Testament I can safely ignore. But I think another piece too in all of that is an excellent, excellent response just even later in 1 Corinthians 14:12 where Paul writes, So with yourselves, since you were eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. And so there's motivation there as well. I think we all would love to play a role in building up the local church that God has placed us in. And this is a vital means that God has provided for us to do this wonderful work of building up edifying, encouraging one another in the church.
Like you said, we've each been given gifts of the Spirit. They are a sacred trust. They're stewardship of God's grace. Peter talks about that, as each has received a gift, use it. And so in all of this, just to piggyback on what you're saying, there is not this self-focused desire for recognition or affirmation because of the various gifts that we have, but rather an eager looking out at the church that we serve in which provokes a desire to do what we can, according to what God has given us to build up the church. I mean, what a privilege that we have to build one another up in a local church and God has given us all that we need to do just that. Amen. But the reality is we can talk broadly about spiritual gifts and some of them they might appear more ordinary. We would say definitely not every gift given by the Holy Spirit is extraordinary as a gift from God empowered by the Holy Spirit of God. That includes things like serving and giving. But I think Timothy has in mind too, specifically this 1 Corinthians 14:1, this earnestly desiring, especially prophesying or maybe the more seemingly remarkable, maybe we'll put it that way, public type of gifts, which can feel a little bit more hard to wrap your head and your hands around perhaps for some folks. I get that. And so what does that look like? How do we earnestly desire the spiritual gifts in the context of 1 Corinthians 14:1, especially the gift of prophecy?
Mark Prater:
Yeah, it's a great question and I think I'm so glad you mentioned what you did. It can sort of seem like especially the public gifts, and let me just start there because if you read 1 Corinthians 12, all of first Corinthians 12, certainly verses 7 through 11 that lists the gifts, or you read Ephesians 4 or you read Romans 12 verses 3-8, I believe it is, or 1 Peter 4. Those are places where the gifts are listed in each of those lists. None of them are separated out as better gifts than other gifts,
Benjamin Kreps:
Right? Exactly.
Mark Prater:
All are equal in the sight of God, I believe, and all are necessary and needed for the church to be used. The reason he says, especially that you may prophesy, there in 1 Corinthians 14, is he goes on to talk a lot about prophecy and tongues in the gathered church. And he's wanting prophecy because it's intelligible. There's the principle of intelligibility and people to accomplish the goal of edification, which you just said so well, and by the way is a priority in Jeff's book. People have to understand what is being spoken for them to be edified. So there's the principle of intelligibility that tongues doesn't offer unless there's interpretation.
So that's why he kind of says, especially that you may prophesy, there in 1 Corinthians 14:1, but this earnestly desire language is actually used throughout the New Testament. You see it again in chapter 14 verse 39. He says, again, earnestly desire, actually he uses that same language, earnestly desire. In chapter 12 verse 31, you move outside of the Corinthian letter and you find in 1 Timothy 4:14. So this is Paul writing to a pastor, his son in the faith Timothy. And he says there, do not neglect the gift that you have. So don't neglect it, the gift that you have. He writes in his very last letter to Timothy, 2 Timothy 1:6, fan into flame the gifts that you have. So that language is very active language and Paul assumes that apart from our active pursuit of the gifts, we will not use them and we will weaken in our use of them. And the effect is that it weakens the church and it doesn't build up the body of Christ. It doesn't add to God's heart for the church as what you said so well is that the church would be built up.
So that's language that tells us this is something we need to be mindful of and praying about and pursuing. Which gets to the question Timothy asked, how do I pursue them? How do I earnestly desire? And here's just a few quick thoughts. I would begin with you earnestly desire the gifts by pursuing God himself. We got to keep in mind God is the giver of the gifts. You see that in 1 Corinthians 12 verses 4-6, for example. God is the giver of the gifts. So we don't pursue the gifts first. We pursue the giver first.
Benjamin Kreps:
That's right.
Mark Prater:
And what I've found is that just in seeing people use their gifts effectively, those are the people that are growing in their love for God and his word and are growing in their obedience to God and treasuring of Christ. Those are the people that I find are using their gifts most effectively. So first of all, pursue God.
Second, pursue love. 1 Corinthians 14 starts that way, right? It's not just a transition from 1 Corinthians 13, that is a topic on love, to 1 Corinthians 14. It does function that way, but I think it's a little bit more than that because if the gifts are given for the common good, meaning for the members of the church to build up the church, we will be more effective in using them as we grow in our love for God and our love for God's people. Because we will use them with the love of God and with a similar love that he has for his people. So pursue love, pursue loving the people in your church, especially those that are difficult to love and you will grow in your gifts.
Pursue faith. And Romans 12:6, that kind of pulls this out. It talks about prophecy in particular the gift of prophecy, use it in proportion to your faith. And so God has given a proportion, an amount of faith to you to use that gift. And so I find that in using the gifts, especially public gifts, in some sense it requires faith. It requires for you to step out in faith. But even for the non spectacular non-public gifts, it still requires faith to step out and say, I'll serve, I'll be used. I've got the gift of whatever, administration, I want to help. That requires faith. And God loves those steps of faith and he blesses those. So pursue faith.
And then I would just say pursue opportunities. Just look for opportunities. When we think about the gifts, we can think rightly about the church and obviously that's what 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 is talking about, the gathered church. But I would say begin in your home. If you're married, use your gifts at home with your spouse. If you have children, use them with your children. One of the things I hope for in my own life and I hope for our churches is that our use of the gifts publicly is really an overflow of how we use them more privately so that there's no disconnect from our private life and from our public life. And when our girls were growing up in our home, we just encouraged the use of the gifts and they discovered the gifts they had by times that we had when we're praying together and the gifts are being used as we're praying together. So I would say pursue opportunities in the home, pursue opportunities in your small group. Small groups are a wonderful place to use the gifts. And obviously in the church.
Just a few quick practicals and like, okay, how do I know what gifts I have? First of all, begin with prayer. Pray, ask God to show you what gifts he's given you. He will be kind to do so. And then get the input of those around you, especially those that know you well and just talk with them. I think I may have this gift. What do you think? Or I don't know if I have this gift. We invite your input or do you see that I have gifts I'm not aware of? Those are good questions to ask people. And that's another expression of interdependency we have with one another in the church.
And then I would just say, if you're not completely sure, just begin to serve. A lot of times we get clarity on our gifts just by serving and we realize over time, okay, I think I'm gifted to do that. So I would just find ways to serve and just begin to serve in the church and let the gifts emerge that way as well. So just a few thoughts in that regard.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, that's excellent. The command is to earnestly desire, which I would suggest is a correction to kind of perhaps open but cautious idea when it comes to the gifts. They're not just, Hey, you should want this, but there should be an earnestness. There should be an eagerness in the pursuit of the gifts. You're exactly right, because it is a piece of pursuing love in the local church. And so everything you said is just gold. I would add too, even just thinking through preparing for a Sunday, for instance, a good practice, a healthy practice is maybe on Saturday night or Sunday before going to church to just take some time to pray and ask God for whatever gifts that he would desire to sovereignly distribute in church as we gather on a Sunday. And include yourself in that, not just simply that there would be prophetic words, for instance on a Sunday morning, but if it would please the Lord, I'm eager and willing to be used as well. So you're positioning yourself in preparation for a gathering like that and then to know as well, especially with a younger guy, I'm not saying this about Timothy, don't know where he's at with this, but it could be a reluctance to step out because there's concern about pride in all of that. Well, I don't want to put myself forward or be arrogant. We've probably, most of us anyway, have seen expressions of pursuing the gifts that look not so selfless that carry with them a bit of pride. But going to your pastor or in a community group setting or community group leader and just humbly submitting a desire to use a gift, submitting that is an act of humility and an expression of love as well.
And so one of our shared values is, we have a continuation of pneumatology, which we love. We celebrate in Sovereign Grace. As well though, our shaping virtues; humility, godliness, servanthood, those things, they inform those theological positions that we have. And so I would say again, the gospel comes into play in all of this. How am I pursuing spiritual gifts? So I'm doing so with humility before the Lord, humility with others in a local church, not insisting or demanding. Every pastor knows what it's like to encounter someone who informs us that they have a spiritual gift and they're just looking for where they can use it. And we'd much prefer to hear someone eagerly wanting to use gifts, but with humility. Why are we doing it? We're bringing the gospel again, we're doing it to serve others. It's the heart to serve. So humility, service, seeking to encourage, build up the church, all of those things come into place.
So applying the gospel to that desire to help shapes the contours of what that desire looks like and then how it's expressed when you gather with your local church or even in your family setting as well. I love that encouragement; looking, keeping an eye out, eager to be used by God, humbly seeking to use the gifts that he's given us. And you know what? Sometimes it's going to be mistakes, sometimes it's going to be clunkers and we learn from that. I mean there's a learning process just like with everything else, like you were saying, fanning into flame gifts. There's a process, there's a growing, there's a practicing that happens. And when we do that together and we make it a safe environment because of the gospel, especially for us to sometimes have a clunker but still love one another and move forward together, we grow and the church is edified and strengthened as well. So Mark, before we end this episode, anything else that you would like to add?
Mark Prater:
Well, a couple of thoughts. I think that you just made a really good point, just preparing for Sunday and setting your heart position. How can I serve and asking the Lord to use you. I just want to pick up on that. And just even as you're driving to church, pray, Lord, I want to be used by you today. Lead me by the Spirit. Show me how I can be used and use my gifts in that way. And I say that because be aware of the spontaneous work of the Spirit, which is a wonderful thing.
Two Sundays ago I was praying that way on the way to church and while we're singing, I believe the Lord gave me a prophetic impression and it just kind of came in the moment. I had not been thinking about it. The word was essentially about those who were grappling around in darkness and the Lord just really wanted to encourage in that way. So I hadn't had much time to even think about it. I took it up to our mic and I did share it. It was Marty Machowski at the mic. He allowed it to be shared. And after the meeting, I had a man come up to me and just said, I can't tell you how timely that was for me. And just began to unpack for me what he was facing and how that prophetic impression encouraged him. And I had an opportunity to pray for him.
That wouldn't have happened without just being open to the spontaneous work of the Spirit. And so that makes the Christian life sort of an adventure in that regard. It makes it like you can't plan this, this is the Lord. And just to know that the Lord was at work in that way and used you to serve even that one man in our church, it strengthens your relationship with him and it brings a wonderful joy in your life as well. So just be open to that. I thought you said that really well, Ben.
I wanted to end with the way Jeff ends his book and again, the Spirit and the Church. This is available on the Sovereign Grace website. The PDF is free. If you want the hard copy, you can order that off Amazon. I think it's like five bucks. But this is what Jeff says regarding 1 Corinthians 12 through 14. In sum, these chapters bear eloquent testimony to the reality that the Holy Spirit is at work among God's people in a thousand different ways, many of which we can take for granted, some of which we may have ignored. They also remind us that the God who is omnipresent delights to be actively present among His people, often in quiet ways, and at times indiscernible, dynamic ways through the gifts the Holy Spirit imparts to his believers. And it's just a wonderful way to end that book and really to really maybe end this portion of our podcast. It's a reminder that God does manifest his presence among us and wants to actively be among his people, as Jeff said. And we experience that in part when we use the gifts. So another encouragement regarding our pursuit of the gifts of the Spirit
Benjamin Kreps:
That is deeply encouraging. May we never lose the wonder of this. I mean, the fact that we have been rescued from wrath reconciled to God, adopted out of his child. I mean, that should be sufficient for us to just walk in each Sunday in a daze of wonder. But then he actually empowers us by his Holy Spirit. He gives us grace, gifts to serve one another in the power of the Spirit. I mean, this is an adventure indeed. And also, may this be a gentle encouragement perhaps to anybody who's checking out the podcast and you're kind of in on the sidelines when it comes to spiritual gifts, maybe a little reluctant, maybe not quite ready to step out in faith. God will meet you as you step out in faith and obedience to His word. You should expect that waiting for you. There will be fresh grace, the Spirit waiting for you there to empower your faith as you step out.
And so may we ever be a family of churches full of men, women and kids who eagerly desire the spiritual gifts dependent on God and have the privilege together of watching God build his church up as we serve one another in a local church with the gifts that he's given us.
So thank you, Mark, for your wise counsel. Thank you, Timothy, for your wonderful question. We are taking questions. We are open for business. So if you go on the Mark K Prater website, there's a spot there where you can send in your questions. We get 'em from time to time and we are keeping them and thinking about ones that we can answer going forward in the show. So submit your questions and you just might get an answer at some point on this podcast.
So thanks, Mark. Thank you all for checking out the podcast. We'll see you here, Lord willing next week. Bye for now.